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SPN Meta: Sammy's Choice ... Triumph or Failure? - Bloodslave for Cookies — LiveJournal
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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Tue, May. 16th, 2006 11:55 pm
SPN Meta: Sammy's Choice ... Triumph or Failure?

19CommentReply

astri13
astri13
astri13
Wed, May. 17th, 2006 04:04 pm (UTC)

And...my brain has now officially exploded. *g*

I agree that the general message the show seems to put forth is: "Good can triumph over evil."

And I like that. Honestly I found the ending of Angel with their "the fight is all that matters"-message nine kinds of depressing. Because if there really is no light at the end of the tunnel, how long till you succumb to the darkness? It`s the utter absence of hope and people in general are just not designed to be able to function in that kind of environment. Thus I`m digging the more optimistic approach of SPN very much.

While I think that Sam`s choice here was influenced as much by his own reasons as Dean`s need, I even agree that from a cosmic viewpoint it was a failure. And you brought up an intriguing notion with Sam therefore ultimately betraying Dean with his inability to play his part as the one able to overcome his weakness. Poor Sam, damned if you do, damned if you don`t.
What I wouldn`t like is for that "failure" to be seen with a clear level of judgement. The whole scenario was presented very much with empathy and understanding for Sam`s choice, while John again came across as utterly consumed by vengeance.

For me it`s an intersting question of: What right do we have to ask that kind of sacrifice from others if we probably/maybe wouldn`t be willing to do it ourselves? Can choosing love ever be considered to be totally wrong, even if the consequences are terrible? Do the needs/wants of the many really necessarily outweigh the needs/wants of the one? *g*
I just don`t want there to be an easy and definite answer to this.

Just as I don`t think Sam in the Pilot is to be seen as the epitome of redemption from his fatal flaw. Because again, it`s not necessary to cut the people, who you might fear you`re too attached to, out of your life (I know it wasn`t that black and white but Sam seemed A-okay with the situation.) Not to mention denying a big part of your past and thus a big part of yourself to everybody, including yourself.

Which again brings us to the value of compromise and the wonders of happy medium. :-)
Just as Dean goes too far with defining his little world, Population: 3, by absolute love and loyalty to the point of utter self-sacrifice and thus setting himself up for the ultimate heartbreak because no way can the other live up to that ideal, Sam seems to have ventured too far in the other direction.

And I really see that as the Journey ahead of us with Dean and Sam. Their personal growth. They learned quite a bit about each other in the first season, probably due to interacting as adults without their Dad for the first time (Sam seemed quite shocked a few times to discover Dean`s emotional vulnerabilites, letting me to believe he largely bought the cocky facade Dean likes to put out), but still have miles to go, which in a big way can be attributed to their less than impressive communication skills with each other.
That said, I don`t want Dean or Sam to simply adopt the others philosophy on life be it hunting or "normal". That would be a disservice to either character.
Now that I`ve utterly digressed from the original question, I better stop. *g*


ReplyThread
dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Wed, May. 17th, 2006 06:46 pm (UTC)

And...my brain has now officially exploded. *g*

Ewwww. Could you clean up that mess before you leave, please?

Because if there really is no light at the end of the tunnel, how long till you succumb to the darkness?

I'm with you in preferring SPN's choice, but the above is what Angel was all about. There was no hope for redemption for Angel ... his only redemption was in continuing the struggle despite the fact that there was no hope for redemption. So within the context of what that whole show was about (well, except for the whole Cordy!Demon idiocy which was about, uh, nothing), it worked for Angel. There is no redemption, only the struggle. And that's why they ended it that way.

But I agree with you, this is not what SPN is about, nor should it be.

Poor Sam, damned if you do, damned if you don`t.

Exactly. But the savior's sacrifice must always be selfless or it doesn't hold the potential to redeem the world. In order to save the world others for others, he must give up his own world. Such is the cross he bears, if you'll forgive the obviousness of that pun. ;)

I absolutely agree with what you say about the journey from here being about Dean and Sam. I don't know if the theological connotations I see now will hold over into S2, especially since I'd bet my eye teeth that both Papa John and the Demon will be toast by the end of the first ep of S2, but for right now, I find them valid, and interesting.


ReplyThread Parent
astri13
astri13
astri13
Wed, May. 17th, 2006 07:24 pm (UTC)

Ewwww. Could you clean up that mess before you leave, please?

Okay, mopping it up right now. *g*

There is no redemption, only the struggle. And that's why they ended it that way.

I know and I loved Angel but at the end of the day I`m a big fat sap for a happy ending. So even if there is no redemption in the sense of ever being able to right the wrongs he commited, I still love the idea of there being a chance of forgiveness and finding peace of mind.


ReplyThread Parent
dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Wed, May. 17th, 2006 07:30 pm (UTC)

I don't think Joss believes in happy endings unless that is what the story calls for. And I tend to agree with him in that. For my money, while it would have made me much "happier" to have a nice, bright, happy ending for Angel (or at least one that coul manage a dark shade of grey rather than true coal black), I would have lost respect for what he was trying to say with the whole series if he'd gone there.

The right choice was to stick by what he'd claimed all along: There is not redemption for Angel, only the struggle. To have relented on that stance just because he was ending the series would be, IMO, to say that it was never really true anyway. That you were always going to get desert, I just told you that you weren't so you'd think about what a bad boy you were, Angel. You know what I mean?


ReplyThread Parent
astri13
astri13
astri13
Wed, May. 17th, 2006 07:37 pm (UTC)

I realize that`s just a personal preference but I HATE, absolutely hate open or cliffhanger endings.

And the end of Angel was one for me, because sure, in all likelyhood they`re dead, but if he`d cut the Buffy-Finale off at a certain point, it would have been the exact same situation and they survived (granted on total plot contrivances and deus ex machina but still *g*).

And it made me hate the Buffy ending even more because all the people I hated survived there while the Angel crew I cared much more for got the shitty end of the stick. TV-shows are so unfair. *wails* *g*


ReplyThread Parent
dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Wed, May. 17th, 2006 09:08 pm (UTC)

I,personally, preferred Angel's open ended finale to Buffy's stupid (and anti-climactic) one.

TV shows are unfair ... LOL! Yes, they are. The bastards. :D


ReplyThread Parent
astri13
astri13
astri13
Thu, May. 18th, 2006 10:45 am (UTC)

Exactly. But the savior's sacrifice must always be selfless or it doesn't hold the potential to redeem the world. In order to save the world others for others, he must give up his own world. Such is the cross he bears, if you'll forgive the obviousness of that pun. ;)

I think I pondered this last night in my sleep. Somebody help me. *g*

Maybe because unlike the big scale battles of Buffy and Angel where literally the world hung in balance, I have trouble applying the same to Sam.
Letting the demon go sure is bad news, especially for our poor Winchesters but for about 99 % of the population? Not a blip on the radar screen.

And again, total sympathy for the saviour rejecting the sacrifice because who truly has a right to demand that of him.

So I guess in the end for me it is both, a personal triumph and yet a cosmic failure.
Yes, I love my little paradoxons. ;-)


ReplyThread Parent
dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Thu, May. 18th, 2006 05:13 pm (UTC)

Letting the demon go sure is bad news, especially for our poor Winchesters but for about 99 % of the population? Not a blip on the radar screen.

I don't know about that. I think the implication of such a dramatic increase demonic possessions may be intended to indicate that a world-in-the-balance kind of battle is in the offing. That may not be accurate, but that's the way I've been taking it.

And again, total sympathy for the saviour rejecting the sacrifice because who truly has a right to demand that of him.

Oh, absolutely. I don't think the role of savior is something anyone can -- rightfully or otherwise -- demand of Sam. I just think that is his role in all this. Or at least, that there's good groundwork laid that it is intended to be his role, or his destiny, if you will.

And I'm all for paradoxons. :D


ReplyThread Parent