It's a cool idea although I think angels do exhibit free will in SPN and biblically as well. Lucifer could choose to obey and bow to man or disobey and fall. This is an act of free will. Lucifer wasn't an automaton blindly and mindless obeying God. Lucifer had to choose between obedience and disobedience. We see this same choice happening again with Anna and Castiel.

It's interesting because in most religions obedience is the hallmark of sanctity and disobedience akin to sin. In the SPN universe we see the reverse. It's by Dean's disobedience to the angels' grand plan that the world is saved. Jimmy sacrificed everything by agreeing to become Castiel's vessel lost everything. Ironically I wonder how things would have turned out if the angels chose Sam instead of Dean as we saw back in Season Two with "Houses of the Holy" he probably would happily and willingly agree to what the angels asked of him.

When angels exercise free will rather than blind obedience to God's will, they fall. Fallen angels, like demons, absolutely can do whatever they want to do ...

... unless, of course, you subscribe to the idea that demons have no free will to do anything other than obey their new master, Lucifer, who SPN shows as a more seductive tyrant than the John-dictator God mold, but in the end, just sneakier about getting you to do what he intends for you and making you think it is your choice when it isn't. In which case, Lucifer is possibly the only angel who has ever truly excersized free will for more than one choice (which follows, since he was the first, and they usually plug the loopholes after the first fish wiggles through) ... the one choice that leads to their fall to a new master, but a master no less than their last. But every other "choice" those fallen angels make is only an illusion of Lucifer's design ... something that seems to be substantiated by the idea that Ruby, no matter how much she might have seemed to be making choices of her own will to the end of doing good, was actually doing evil at the behest of an unrevealed master ... which was pretty much Dean's point in telling Sam that no matter what her actions LOOKED like, she was a demon and thus only capable of doing evil.

In terms of other instances of apparent free will on the part of angels, while I do agree that SPN sometimes seems to play a bit fast and loose with the idea that angels have no free will (where the bible doesn't), all those instances I've seen portrayed in SPN seem to have occured only after the disappearance of God from the scene ... which bibilically speaking, would likely be the true onset of the end of days in that the blindly obedient are left without their master to obey, thus forcing them into the Catch22 of making their own choices by necessity when confronted by a situation for which they do not have orders to obey, and without any true capacity for choosing, those angels turn to other to tell them what to do, as Uriel did, which is how Lucifer gains minions amongst angels who have not yet truely "fallen" by their own choice. As they are not making their own choice. In the vacuum of their master's authority, they are turning to those who outrank them for guidance, that being either Lucifer or Michael, as both rank equally in original angelic hierarchy. So rather than choosing their own way, they are still obeying a master who either obeys or disobeys their ultimate master by virtue of being unfallen or fallen.

With Anna, she quite clearly "fell" by her choice to disobey God (thus her loss of grace and of her angelic identity). And with Zachariah and Castiel, they are both obeying God to the extent of the orders God has issued, but without God onsite to do their choosing for them, it is Cas who is struggling with the concept of free will and Zachariah who is blindly following orders outdated enough to have the potential to have become anti-orders, and he at least claims to be doing so under the command of archangels who outrank him (Michael, etc), which is still him not choosing for himself so much as obeying the chain of command when the General's out of town ...

(continued)

(continued)

... Cas, on the other hand, is not disobeying God at all, but rather struggling with the conundrum of whether Michael is misrepresenting God's orders as Lucifer has done. If he is, then Castiel's obedience is still to God and he is struggling not to choose between obedience and disobedience, but rather with what constitutes obedience to someone who is issuing no orders. And if Michael IS still obedient to God despite all rumors to the contrary ... then Castiel's delimma comes far closer to the realm of exercising free will inthat he is at least TEMPTED to disobey Michael even if he believes Michael is obedient to God. Which, if he were to go there, would be something that would no doubt cost him his grace to the end of a fall ... which might well explain why his "mojo" has gone on the fritz, him experiencing doubt in his own obedience, even if he has not yet destroyed his angelic self by exercising that which angels do no possess.

And interesting philosophical debate of the chicken-or-the-egg variety in where the line for free will exists, and what constitutes an "angel" when an angel can become a demon by falling, as Azazel did. Because certainly, there's no apparent lore speaking of an angel "unfalling" by regaining his grace ... something that makes the parable of the prodigal son, particularly as it might relate to Gabriel's defection without falling, an interesting thing to contemplate as to whether it applies only to humanity and our Father, or if it might also aply to angels and their Father. And if an angel can become an angel again by renouncing the right to free will that caused his fall to the demonic realm in the first place -- an angelic version of redemption, perhaps? Certainly a possibility to consider if one believes in the forgiving God ... that He would not fail to forgive Cain his transgressions should Cain repent and ask for that forgiveness any more than He would fail to forgive Able those same transgressions ... if Cain and Abel were angels, of course. :D

All interesting tangents of discourse, which is one of the things I find most interesting about angelic lore in general, and in how it is applied to the SPN mythos when SPN does something fantabulous like pulling Gabriel out of the Trickster's ass.

A freaking men. It's so nice to see something where people are appreciating the back story and not just whining because we didn't get a monster of the week ep or bitching that the funny eps are just filler. @@ I loved this and I agree with you completely.

Thanks. :D

This show really turns my crank when it is smart and smartly written. Which, for my money, this episode absolutely was. That it also happened to be funnier than hell was just icing on the cake. But the cake itself? Was Gabriel with a cherry on top, and everything that reveal entails when it comes to the Winchester family mythos.

Exactly. It was the writing that drew me into the show. I didn't know who anyone was and I just fell in love with the way they told the stories every week. Too many people are expecting what they want to happen and not sitting and enjoying what is happening. The trickster being Gabriel made me so giddy, I didn't know what to do with myself.

Right there with ya. Giddy is exactly the right word. I expected it to turn out to be Zachariah. Gabriel? I did not expect ... in all the best ways.

Me too. I thought it was Zach trying again. That the trickster is Gabriel is just so entirely made of awesome that I can't even tell you.

I had thinky thoughts on free will, but your reply to Azina was up by the time I went to say them and addressed them all better. I think also that part of the problem with the display of free will in this show is technical difficulties. A part of it's because it would be hard to have a show without the wiggle room of free will and another part because, as beings with free will, we can't really comprehend life without it. It's like a truly 2-D object in our world. We can use it as a simplification and conceive of it, but not truly render it into the 3-D world (a drawing of a square still physically has the depth of the graphite).

I think, however, that it was the reminder of human weakness being strength that most resonated with me. It's through their weaknesses that Sam and Dean are strong together, and what they have learned from those flaws that will let them triumph.

That said, you also gave the explanation for Lucifer in your main point. Lucifer, and the angels, seem to deal in absolutes, a by-product of perfection. Thus, following what we've been told, the orders to love God completely and love man completely were incompatible. He couldn't deal with 1+1=1. The "does not compute" is then the cause of the fall, rather than a freak endowment of free will. Perhaps the others, with less powerful love or less absolutism as God geared up for humans, had less drastic "does not compute"s or could reconcile the two to a certain extent.

Further, if we take the SPN canon that Lucifer created Lilith from a human and then was shut away, unable to affect things much, it's still human-based souls doing the manipulating. Has it ever been said in show that Azazel, etc. are fallen angels as they are considered outside it? If not, then we have humans as the cause of every disagreement, conflict, and change in the angels, who left to their own humanity-free devices, seem to go along thinking/doing/etc. the same things. This might imply (in Show) that humans can change the angels until they are changed enough they can change themselves (as might be happening with Castiel) or just they're going to change things until the angels all run into each other and explode or have to be removed from human influence before that happens. So, perhaps then the human ability to change makes both humanity and its predecessor better.

I think I got a little on a tangent at the end, but do you understand what I'm trying to say?

P.S. Does the Trickster-as-Gabriel also eliminate the complaint that Sam hasn't gotten to time-travel with angels?

Edited at 2009-11-07 09:28 am (UTC)

My GOD - were you listening in on my living room on Friday morning?! Hubby and I had this EXACT conversation!!

*hugs*

And from the human perspective, as put to voice by Dean, "Lucifer and Michael may not have been able to avoid it because they are angels, and thus have no free will to decide to do other than what is fated for them to do. But Sam and I are human. Which means we DO have free will. And it means we CAN choose to avoid this fate. And we will. Because love/family trumps all for those who have the right to excersize their free will to act in love rather than in service to self or obedience to others. Which is why God went human when he designed Angel V2.0 after the great Lucifer-Michael crash and burn. Because y'all fuckers are FLAWED in lacking the free will to avoid that which can be avoided by choosing to simply DO so. But me and Sam? Brother against brother to the end of days? Never going to happen. Welcome to the next generation, suckers. That bug has been FIXED."

This is brilliant in both concept and execution. Far more eloquent than me screaming at the television, 'It's about free will, you moron!'

The angels keep telling Sam and Dean that they are each other's weakness. This 'imperfection' as you explain it, is what makes this weakness, their strength.

And because I'm so very shallow, stubborn guys are just damn hot.

That's an interesting point about why God has to be absent during the Apocalypse - not just because with a word he could put an end to it, but also to allow his "children" (all of them, angelic and human) the opportunity to succeed or fail. I guess that could be why angels like Zachariah in our eyes are so off the rails - they don't know how to act without Divine Instruction, so are acting the only way they know how - using absolutes. Dean MUST say yes to Michael because, he MUST obey, because that's the only course of action that can happen as far as they are concerned. For Dean to say no (or Sam to say no to Lucifer) is just inconceivable to them.

That's what makes Castiel - and Anna and Uriel before him - so interesting, because they're just learning how to act without Instruction, which is something they've never had to do before. It's interesting that Uriel chose to disobey - to follow Lucifer - when he realised he actually had a choice.

Hey I loved this. Quick run through in terms (less eloquent than you) I can understand.

Okay, I get the obvious and some of the less obvious. Dean was obedient to John, trusted him, followed him. Dean is an angel (well...I am sure John would have some interesting thoughts for that choice of words)

Sam is a potential fallen Angel. Pushing the limits of his father. Disobedient. Stubborn. He leaves (falls)
and John's reaction is to banish him, you know - if you walk out that door, don't come back.

God did that to Lucifer. Got it.

John's disappearance in S1, does this parallel Gods disappearance? Is this the testing ground for independence? John knows they have to learn to work together and with him in the mix, that is not likely. Yes, he is hunting the demon but I have always thought that John's leaving was more than just a protective device for the boys. They only way for them to get back to the business of being brothers was for John to leave. They find John (would the angels have found God, at least temporarily) Family back together if uneasily at times and then John is killed.

God is dead.

Now Dean and Sam have to make their own decisions. But unlike Angels, Sam and Dean do have free will. They can choose wisely or unwisely be wrong or right. That has been an underlying theme since John's death. Sometimes one or the other fucks up but no matter, they have each other.

Lucifer and Michael never have this opportunity. Yes, God is dead, but their paths don't include the ability to forgive. Understand. Get plain pissed but realize that this is your brother so...they never (or at least not yet) find their way back to each other and ultimately God.

Cas is looking for him. Because Cas needs that direction like whoooaa. He is floundering and trying to make the right choices, something he has never had to do before.

Sam is not really Lucifer. Dean not really Michael because they can choose NOT to be.

Am I close here?

I think you're right on the dot there *nods*

ETA: Well, I don't think God is dead, because... God can't die. He is everything that is and isn't and... etc. He's just kind of kicking it in Jersey.

Edited at 2009-11-07 05:59 pm (UTC)

Yeah, you are right. God isn't dead just kickin' it in Jersey. Hey! Massive insight!

JOHN ISN'T DEAD - HE IS KICKIN' IT IN JERSEY.

*does happy dance*

I love you for this. You took the word right out of my head, AND gave me more to think about.

I really appreciate a fan response to an episode that's so well thought out, coherent, and isn't a bithfest (I will admit, I've been the opposite of all three in the past myself), but it's the fact that you're actually TALKING and THINKING about the angel aspect of the show this way that makes me applaud you. Yes, Castiel is hot and all, but I've been waiting for someone to actually talk about the writing!

This is an excellent meta. As I have been less and less happy with the whole angel mytharc this season, you've given me hope again.

Have I told you lately how much I love you??

Yes. Free will. Exactly.

And they drive off into the sunset, BTW. :D

I tend to skip meta these days because it more annoys me than anything else, but you really put into words something I was feeling and some that I hadn't been able to express.

Beautiful.

This is Dean's point. This is, in fact, the very reason Dean can comprehend the possibility that the apocalypse can end any way except as it will. Because he knows that with imperfection comes the gift of possibility.

And he's a stubborn bastard. XD

No, for real though, this amuses me to no end because in addition to exemplifying (one of) the point(s) you've made here - that the involvement of humans makes the Apocalypse possibly not so fatal - it also shows that despite the fact that Dean rejects the existence of God and is, still, a non-believer, he has always been the best in the family at Blind Faith. Everyone else has told him they'll fail, so get it over with; even Sam, at this point, is doggedly following along and just hoping not to misstep, but with no real belief that they can avoid it forever. Dean had a bit of faltering after he took the double blow of Start of the Apocalypse and yet another (mostly unintentional) potshot at his love and trust of Sam BY Sam; but he's back on course now, and I couldn't be happier.

Like is not the proper word for what else I take this all to say, but I certainly don't dislike it; I just find it interesting that this also implies that if angels have no free will and they have always known that this will happen and thus have come to this point, it's not really their fault. There's no blame there - it's like blaming humans for not being capable of flight. Granted, the consequences are different there, but the point being that physical and mental impossibility are physical and mental impossibilities - one can resent it, but it's a bit unfair. Michael and Lucifer are acting the only way they possibly can, and always have.

So much yes. YES!

And this:
And this is why God must be absent at the end of days. For without leadership, there can be no following. Without authority, there can be no obedience. Without giving Your beloved child the opportunity to fail, You cannot give Your beloved child the opportunity to succeed.

Plus this: But Sam and Dean are NOT angels. They ARE imperfect. And as imperfect upgrades, they have the right to free will.

= YES! I'm sorry I don't have more wordies just now, but your wordies are full of awesome and yes. So. Thank you. :-)

YES! FTMFW! That is exactly why I loved this episode and was making flaily hands during the entire reveal. I am so happy with this show right now and the direction it is going. I also love how Kripke took the apocalypse, the epic battle between Good and Evil, and made it about family drama.

And this is why God must be absent at the end of days
Exactly. Most of fandom has denounced this God but this is exactly why he is not available. I firmly believe he is hiding out of sight, watching all his children and going "c'mon, c'mon, make the right choice!"

A well written Meta, but the only thing that I struggle with is that Angels don't have free will. My faith is not exactly 100% clear on the position, Some authors say that Angels have free will and others don't. And some are in between saying that Angels have only one choice which they make with free will and afterward everything is dictated by fate and destiny. The choice either to love and obey God or not to do so can be made or reversed at any point but its the only one they have. Some say man is superior to Angels, not because of freewill, because only man like God can create something new. That is my personal favorite and even works with beings like the Trickster/Gabriel who creates things, but only that which has been imagined by the mind of man.

Zaz

It has been my stand from the beginning that this is a story ultimately about humans (two in particular) versus the supernatural world. If we postulate the existence of God the Creator in any form, then he/she is the creator of both worlds (natural and supernatural). Since we've been given the trappings of the Judeo-Christian mytharc, with noticeable deviations, we do have to address why humans are different, special, according to God, as reported by the angelic characters.

In the Garden of Eden story, the first man (Adam) exercised his free will, this new shiny thing humans have over angels, by a disobedient act - eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. For that act of disobedience, he was cast out of Eden and into a world of things that made his life harsh, and preyed upon him and his descendants.

Was this the point at which Lucifer decided man wasn't worthy of his Father's place of highest regard? He was supposedly actively involved in the temptation of Eve which seems to imply he knew the consequences of free will and how it could be twisted by a manipulator to get a desired outcome.

I have no clue if any of this will ever be directly addressed on Supernatural but I completely agree with you that imperfection and free will are bound together, and that this is why in spite of the fact that all the powerful figures on both sides of the angelic family split agree that the boys have to comply and go along with their appointed roles, the final culmination of the five year story is not going to be about Lucifer and Michael battling each other in the bodies of Sam and Dean.

If I let my mind wander around the whole idea, I keep coming to the notion that the absent Father has set things into motion towards the possibility, with far from certain odds, that the Winchester brothers may actually be able to teach his first sentient race, the angels, what free will is and why it is in the end, preferable to blind obedience.

Maybe. ^^

Thanks for the wonderful meta. <3

your words about why God must be absent at the end of days and "Without giving Your beloved child the opportunity to fail, You cannot give Your beloved child the opportunity to succeed." - I cannot stop thinking about John. Just.. it's so him.

Thanks for the whole text. Will surely tell my friends.

Very good ideas there - to which I totally agree.

But?? I wonder if 'free will' worked something like a code patch - where you have to add it to the whole system and sometimes it has effects in places you didn't expect. (Angel-bug!*grin*)

What if - in giving humans free will - EVERYTHING got free will. Apes, bugs, trees, spirits,... whatever. The shift from the perfect mechanical universe ( God the Engineer) to something more quantum. [[ Before quantum, there was a theory that if you could know the exact state at the moment of the BigBang you would know every action ever in the universe.]]

Once a sentient being *SEES* free will, I don't see how they can NOT develop it. IMHO.

BUT - applied to angels? Some of them just couldn't handle it. (And not just like some humans cant handle it well - I mean severe blue-screen.) Maybe Lucifer fell not because of disagreement/rebellion but because he couldn't *handle* being in disagreement without going all the way over to system=crash.

Might that not explain the frozen disfunction of the angels we see? They are Ram heavy but processor slow, trying to act on instructions too buggy to be functional.

Like Gabe said - he just can't handle it any more.

I quite agree with just everything here. And it was worded so well, too. Though, I gotta admit, I've always liked the idea that God is absent because a) God and Satan made a deal and God being God doesn't renege or cheat or b) chaos must be separated to create order and this becomes good and evil and the chips fall where they will. Either way, God's fighters are humanity. And they'll make mistakes but God trusts them (us) so implicitly, He doesn't need to involve Himself. Either way, it's similar to the idea behind your statement. God offers us the chance to succeed.

Exactly. Without the chance to fail, there is no opportunity to succeed. Yin and yang, always.