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I Digress; Therefore, I Am. - SPN Meta: This Ends Sad or Bloody ... Or, You Know, the Way the Fans Want.
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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 03:34 pm
SPN Meta: This Ends Sad or Bloody ... Or, You Know, the Way the Fans Want.


Once again, prompted to meta by the insightful and interesting conversations that go on in the comments to previous metas. Several people said things, both in response to my metas and in response to Abra's, that have encouraged me to do a little more thinky-thinky on Sam than I've really been doing. And that thinky-thinky, as it turns out, shines a bit of a different light on the episode Criss Angel is a Douche Bag  to my way of thinking. And a far less doomful one, much to my own relief, as perhaps it will to yours.
 
(Important Caveat: Anyone who provides spoilers in comments rather than just their own thinky-thoughts on where the series might be going will be beaten, cut, hung and then killed. I'm jes sayin ...)
 

This Ends Sad or Bloody ... Or, You Know, the Way the Fans Want it To

Given Sam's choice at the end of CAiaDB, take for a moment the idea that The Magician's Tale was a cautionary portent (thanks, ColtShot, for that term) of the future Sam will suffer if he continues on the path of turning his back on his demonic powers. That would be Sam "doing the right thing," and the inevitable endgame of Sam making that choice is that Lilith will succeed in raising Lucifer to the coming of Hell on Earth. In which case, Sam and Dean would continue to fight evil, they would simply be doing it in a post-apocalyptic world where the odds against them make Dean’s assumption that the gig ends sad and bloody look a wee bit optimistic.

And there’s Sam message here:

If you "do the right thing" in turning away from your powers and the potential to be more than you could ever be without them, you will lose everything that matters to you personally, and end up hating yourself for making the choice you made. And in that situation, what value is having done the right thing?
 

And Sam gets the message. And heeds it.

So not wanting to face the fate of becoming an old hunter who still hunts in post-apocalypse Earth, having lost everything that matters to him (assumably Dean, given how much more likely Dean is to get himself killed on any hunt that Sammy is), and only having the cold comfort of being able to say "I did the right thing" as a counterbalance to those losses that, in the end, means absolutely nothing … Sam chooses to accept the corrupter's card rather than do the right thing. He accepts Ruby's offer to help him develop his powers to a strength where he can stop Lilith just as the magician now feels he should have taken the immortality card rather than "doing the right thing" by turning away from it.

There’s a enormously deep repetition resonance to this idea as it relates to both family and self sacrifice … themes the show consistently embraces as their driving dogmas. And that resonance has to do with John teaching his boys one essential lesson that keeps biting them in the ass:

When the stakes are high enough, you do whatever it takes to win, no matter what the cost to yourself. And then John proves out this lesson in reality as well as in theory (do what I do AND what I say) by selling his soul to save Dean.

So John sacrifices himself, body and soul, to save Dean. And in turn, having learned this lesson from his father, Dean sacrifices himself, body and soul, to save Sam. So being John’s son and Dean’s brother, Sam learns the lesson twofold and sacrifices himself, body and soul, to save the world. And with the world ... Dean.

Beyond that, I’d like to point out that Sam is fighting Lilith exactly the way John taught him to. Just as the colt was the only way to kill the YED, so John and the boys ran from the YED until they had the colt and could turn to face him; so has Sam identified himself as the only weapon capable of stopping/killing Lilith. And as the colt must have specific bullets to destroy Azazel, so must Sam have his demonic powers to defeat Lilith.

He can't exorcise Lilith the way they've always exorcised lower demons (Do you really think something like that works on something like me?). And judging by how easily Alistair, a lower demon than Lilith, shrugs off Sam's attempt to blow him back to hell with his mind, Sam’s powers clearly aren’t strong enough to defeat Lilith, yet. So taking a page out of The Book of John: How to Sacrifice Yourself for Those You Love? Sam does exactly what John did after the YED killed Mary: he goes to ground with a teacher (or in John’s case, a series of teachers) to figure out how to use and control his skills, and then he hunts to practice/strengthen/hone those skill on other forms of evil until he’s strong enough to face the only reasons he's hunting in the first place. As for John, it was Azazel; so for Sam, it is Lilith.

So in terms of how Sam responds to the cautionary lesson in The Tale of the Magician? Rather than grow old, ever hunting, having lost everything that matters to him as the price for having "done the right thing," Sam decides to do the wrong thing and go out in a blaze of glory facing Lilith. Because he knows his demonic powers are the only thing that can stop Lilith. Just as he knows that stopping her will end him, beit by killing him in defeat or turning him to the dark side in victory, having indulged his demonically gifted powers just as both Ava and Jake did, and now understanding, having been told by feakin angels, that he will suffer a similar fate if he continues to use them.

So when Sam goes to Ruby at the end of CaisDB? He’s making his choice. He’s opting for the blaze of glory route over The Magician’s Tale. And he’s doing it because he is his father’s son and his brother’s brother: a Winchester, as defined by their willingness to sacrifice themselves in the stead of others, particularly those they love.

So in the context of how this all plays to a less dire end than I originally saw as the portent of this particular episode in how the series endgame might play out?

John sold his soul in the name of love and saved himself from hell. Dean sold his soul in the name of love and angels saved him from hell. So the pattern would seem to dictate that if Sam sells his soul in the name of love, someone will save his dumbass from spending an eternity in hell just as someone saved both his father and his brother.

I vote for Dean in that role. How he might go about doing it? Don’t know. That’s the value of threatening dire consequences (which are still in place, BTW: spoil me and I will beat, cut, hang and THEN kill you!) to anyone who offers spoiler-based speculation rather than just thinky-thoughts they came up with on their own based on aired canon. You get to unwrap that present the way it was intended to be unwrapped: on Christmas morning, when all the anticipation of getting what you want and fretting that you won’t get what you want has been somewhat sadistically whipped to a fever pitch by those who may SAY they love you, but who, in reality, far more love to watch you squirm because they think that kind of thing is hilarious. Jackasses (in the fondest sense, of course).

But even without knowing how he might go about saving Sammy from the pit (though suspecting that it might have something to do with Castiel thinking for himself and acting out of love for Humanity in a way that might potentially damn his ass as well … and thus define him as the personage his name and attitude both imply he actually is), this new light on the text of this particular episode indicates to me that such a thing might be a far more likely endgame for Kripke & Co to pursue than a final conflict between brothers that requires one to die to save the other … which kinda flies in the face of their "in the end, this is about family" core theme. And if that’s the way the game plays, after having saved the world from Armageddon and saved one another from the pit, that would pretty much leave things right where they started, with evil still running amok and innocent people still needing the Winchesters to continue on as they always have: hunting things, saving people.

And in addition to being a far less nihilistic interpretation of things (love buys you nothing but eternal sacrifice and inevitable loneliness), this kind of endgame both resonates with the hopeful resolution to the YED storyline (the trunk shot at the end of IMToD with the boys saying "We’ve got work to do") AND offers the advantage of keeping the fangirls from gathering up their pitchforks and torches and storming the gates with blood in their eye.

And, you know, it also leaves open the possibility of a movie at some later date. In 3-D. With a hockey-masked villain. Who carries a pick ax. But succumbs, in the end, to rocksalt peppered into his ass by Jensen Ackles. And Latin laid upon his ears by Jared Padalecki. And just general bad-assery ass kicking as performed by Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Direct by Kim Manners, of course.


Tags: ,
Current Mood: contemplative

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erda_3
erda_3
keefaq
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 10:11 pm (UTC)

You have my vote. Plus I'm deeply amused by your subject line.


ReplyThread
dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:30 am (UTC)

We are even then, because I am deeply amused by your icon. :D


ReplyThread Parent
minx999
minx999
minx999
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 10:13 pm (UTC)

Why can't you be a writer for Supernatural so it can end the way you have it here? LOL. That would be awesome and I am so in the first row of the theater for that movie! :)

Great meta. Makes me feel a little less uneasy about things and gives me hope.


ReplyThread
dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:31 am (UTC)

Thank ya. I've been a bit uneasy since the episode, too. So looking at it this way makes me a little more comfortable right along with ya.


ReplyThread Parent
mimblexwimble
mimblexwimble
mimblexwimble
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 10:14 pm (UTC)

Well, I know whose ending I'm voting for!


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:33 am (UTC)

I just cannot see any way that fanboy Kripke ends this with one Winchester dead at the other's hand. While I can, on the other hand, see him torturing us with the idea that he's going to end it that way.


ReplyThread Parent
carekogunyel
carekogunyel
carekogunyel
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 10:17 pm (UTC)

I was thinking last night I'd like to see the resolution involving Dean doing the very Winchester thing of, when faced with two equally untenable options, carving a third option from the universe out of pure stubbornness.

I've always thought it wouldn't be right if the show ended with anything other than "...and the adventures (and trials and tribulations) continue". To me, it's just that kind of show.


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:34 am (UTC)

The Kirk Corollary on the Kobiashi Maru: When you can't win by the rules, change the rules.

:D


ReplyThread Parent
may7fic
may7fic
May Robinson
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 10:18 pm (UTC)

From your thoughts to Kripke's brain.

crosses fingers, eyes, and toes

I really like what you have to say here. Not just because it's more hopeful, but because you've laid this out as entirely plausible. I will remain cautiously optimistic. Or optimistically cautious. Or whatever ::shrugs::

Here's hoping!


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:38 am (UTC)

As much as this episode made me a little twitchy that the other might be where Kripke was going, I simply cannot believe that fanboy Kripke would actually end the series with one Winchester brother dead at the hands of the other. That just doesn't make sense to me, either in terms of the themes he has claimed to be exploring series long or in terms of the bottom-line finality of it to cut off any future projects.

Joss? Would absolutely do that. But Kripke? Neh. I don't see it.

But this ending? That rounds about back to the begining? This feels VERY much like the way he resolved the YED arc, with an "everything's not perfect, but the boys are together and they have work to do" note. So in terms of actual potential of the show to go somewhere? I consider this scenario FAR more likely than the darker one to actually happen.

They would, in fact, stun me speachless if they went with the darker version. And then I would join the mobs with the torches and pitchforks, even if I did think it was the right ending in literary terms. :D


ReplyThread Parent
smidirini
smidirini
Rini
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 10:27 pm (UTC)

I love you for this. That episode depressed me so much :P


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:40 am (UTC)

Don't be depressed. Kripke's too much a fanboy, IMO, to end the series on that dark of a note. I find this scenario, or something like it, to be FAR more likely to be where he's heading. He's just trying to scare the hell out of us before he gets there.

And doing a pretty good job of it, for that matter. :D


ReplyThread Parent
partaymon5
partaymon5
partaymon5
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 11:00 pm (UTC)

Very interesting and I must say: satisfying. And thank you besides, because that whole scene at the end with Sam and Ruby, just flat out 'bugged' me! :) But this, this is SO Sam: Sam who never listens to orders, who is so John's son, even though he fought John for a good portion of his life. Sam who,like you say: is still a Winchester, despite his hatred of fighting for a living. Sam who seems to be finally, finally growing up and becoming the man that his family, despite their trying to protect him from, was responsible for nurturing.

I've read so many negative comments about how selfish Sam was at the end, how self-serving and yes, in a way he is, because yes, this will hurt Dean. But as you say, if form holds true, then Sam will ultimately be saved. My thinking: by Castiel. I think too, that Sam is still suffering from a terrible burden of guilt, at not being able to save Dean. This action, as terrible as it might be, would serve to help assuage that guilt and maybe finally let Sam be Dean's equal - in everyone's eyes. Thank you for this and please Kripke, please let it go this way!!


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:43 am (UTC)

Sam is SO John. Dean is MUCH more Mary. Which has always been one of the things I most loved about John and Sam's constant headbutting. That the things that piss them off the most in each other are the same things THEY do to others. But neither one of them can see it. Which, of course, is the way it often works in real life with fathers and sons.

But if there were any doubt in anyone's mind that, if Dean wasn't there to balance him, Sammy would totally go John as a hunter? How they played Mystery Spot should have completely dispelled them. He ABSOLUTELY went John in the after math of "Wednesday," right down to the meticulously arranged weapon's locker.


ReplyThread Parent
tabaqui
tabaqui
tabaqui
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 11:01 pm (UTC)

I am loving your love. And yes, as much as i hate Sam sneaking off and doing this 'thing' that helps his powers - something he finds objectionable and maybe even wrong - he has to do it. He has to learn, and hone his powers, and deal.

I wish he'd tell Dean. I wish they could work together on this. I wish i had an ounce of trust for Ruby.

I can see Dean, actually, being imbued with the grace of angels, and saving Sam. He is, after all, Michael, the warrior to end all warriors, the angel who defeated Lucifer the first time around. The holy sword that wreaks vengeance.

*in my mind, of course. i'm with you - spoil me at your peril*


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:47 am (UTC)

I'm glad he's not telling Dean. Were he to tell Dean, Dean would spend the rest of the series trying to stop him. So for me? I'm much happier with him doing what he must do behind Dean's back ... just as John did in keeping his secret about Sammy's destiny. Yet another time that Sam makes exactly the same choice he villified John for making. Which, of course, always makes my little heart do a happy dance. :D

I'd love to see Castiel save Sam this time, in part because I think they've hinted too heavily that Castiel is actually the lion incarnation of the second coming of Christ to not pay out on those implications, and because Dean has already saved Sammy once by saving his soul. So for Dean to save Sammy again, after Sammy saves Dean from Lilith but couldn't save Dean from the pit? That leaves Sam still in Dean's debt. So I, personally, would prefer to see this as a Castiel thing, particularly in the balance of Castiel also being the one who plucked Dean from the pit.


ReplyThread Parent
continuum
continuum
Maia
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 11:04 pm (UTC)

[here via [info]spn_heavymeta]

Rather than grow old, ever hunting, having lost everything that matters to him as the price for having "done the right thing," Sam decides to do the wrong thing and go out in a blaze of glory facing Lilith.

You know that feeling you get when everything just falls into place? Yeah, that just happened. I'm really glad you mentioned this.

Initially, I'd interpreted the ending of the episode as Sam believing there to be a third option -- neither hunting to old age nor dying young, but just growing old with no more Lilith and Apocalypse to worry about -- but I kept hitting a bump when it came to Sam's line to Ruby where he specifically says "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old," thereby making it about himself rather than Dean. Because if Sam is trying to let the both of them live out their lives as he believes they deserve to -- hunt-free -- by killing Lilith now, why say I instead of we?

So I think what you've proposed here -- paralleling Jay with Sam as opposed to paralleling Jay with Dean, which I've seen more often (although it can work both ways, too, something I believe makes the parallels in this episode much more effective than if they could only go in one direction) -- gives that line a context in which to make a lot more sense since Sam believes that if he does the right thing, Dean will die and Sam will be the one left behind (again) to grow old and alone. And he doesn't want that, so off he goes with Ruby.

It also fits neatly into that potential ending you have here, which I think I'd really like to see. Less because it's more hopeful (I may just be masochistic like that, but I wouldn't mind one or even both of them dying so long as the emotional payoff is worth it), but because it brings the entire story full circle, going from hunting to apocalypse and back to hunting again. Which gives the show an effective way to tie up its loose ends satisfactorily without completely shutting all of its doors.


ReplyThread
dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:51 am (UTC)

I am truely and deeply torn as to which way I'd like to see this go. The story teller in me would LOVE to see them play this to a darker end. But I have simply become too attached to the boys for any other part of me to not be horrified by that option.

And, too, with family and familial love having always been the supposed theme of the journey, even the inner storyteller in me shies away from then making the overall message that family/love doesn't win, it just provokes you to sell your soul to bad end. That message seems in such direct conflict to the tone they've set all along that it would be very jarring, I think, for them to leave that as the final word on the series, even if that word was an incredibly impactful and profound word.


ReplyThread Parent
jameserin
jameserin
jamie
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 11:06 pm (UTC)

which kinda flies in the face of their "in the end, this is about family" core theme.

that is why i have serious trouble getting behind this "one brother must die" thing. why harp on this being about family and such so much if in the end, you're just going to blow it all apart?

I vote for Dean in that role.

me too. if anyone can do it, he can and truthfully, i'm hoping that he'll do it as one last "fuck you" to a god he's never been sure existed and the angels that always threaten to kill sammy.


ReplyThread
dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:56 am (UTC)

I don't want to see Dean do it in defiance of God. But I wouldn't mind seeing Castiel "falling" from grace to do it ... and that being part of the whole point. That sometimes in order to do the thing that has to be done, you have to damn yourself along the way. But if you damn yourself for love, there is always the possibility of redemption.

Because certainly, that has been the repetive theme with John and Dean both selling their souls but not being consigned to the pit for eternity as a result. So if they play that card with Sammy, too; I'd be incredibly impressed if they chose to play it by saying Sammy can only be saved by a fall from grace of the Son of God, thus once again making Christiel the savior of mankind, but perhaps not as an obedience to His Father's will this time so much as in defiance of it.

Which again, plays to my personal squee of duality as a constant in divine design: that in order to save the world, it required both Dean's obedience to his father and Sam's disobedience to his father. So to save mankind, it appeals to me that the first time requires Christ's obedience to God's will and the second time requires His disobedience to God's will.

That kind of duality in the yin and the yang ALWAYS feels far more profound to me than just about anything else a story can ever do, particularly when speaking to matters of faith either directly or indirectly.

Edited at 2009-01-26 04:57 am (UTC)


ReplyThread Parent
adelheide
adelheide
Queen of the Monkey People
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 11:38 pm (UTC)

...someone will save his dumbass...

Oh! Please! At the end of the ep, when Sam got into the car with ?Ruby, I just wanted to beat my head against the table. Complete with facepalm. Lord. Sam!

They just...they keep doing this and they see nothing good comes from it. It's because they are boys and stubborn, isn't it? I bet it is. All these Winchester (and Campbell) men are as stubborn as the day is long.


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:59 am (UTC)

All along I think SPN has made a wonderful statement about the willingness to damn yourself to save those you love is both the salvation and the damnation of mankind. And certainly, the Winchesters are the poster boys of that concept. All three of them.


ReplyThread Parent
dhark_charlotte
dhark_charlotte
Charlotte Dhark
Sun, Jan. 25th, 2009 11:43 pm (UTC)

Commenting because I'm going to be without internet for a while and don't want to lose your post.


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:59 am (UTC)

Hope you get your connection back soon!


ReplyThread Parent Expand


bine110987
bine110987
Bine
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 12:08 am (UTC)

I'll be a good girl and offer my thinky-thoughts as well. Also I have to say WOW! You thought a lot about how everything might play out, and I really much agree with your thoughts.

Anyway, have you ever seen the sculpture of Lucifer? In case you didn't, here it is. Since they began talking about Lillith breaking the seals of Lucifer to set him free, I'm pretty much convinced that she isn't breaking seals literally. It's just a figure of speech, to confuse us poor fans. Because there's still the YED to think of and his "big plans for the gifted children". So what if the blood Azazel gave to Sam and all the others didn't only infect them with Demon blood, but with one demon in particular. Lucifers. What if, with Sam getting older and older, Lucifer started to develop himself inside Sam, just locked inside him until the seals are broken.

How do I get that really weird idea you may ask. I can tell you why. I always asked myself why Jared didn't cut his hair when it obviously bothers him a lot. Then I saw the sculpture of Lucifer and thought "Well, he looks a hell of a lot like Sam/Jared." So yes, I think that with the seals being broken, Lucifer will be "reborn" in Sam.


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auraesque
auraesque
Missy
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 12:27 am (UTC)

Good point. I like that theory, hmmm, I like it a lot.


ReplyThread Parent




auraesque
auraesque
Missy
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 12:23 am (UTC)

Brilliant analysis. And I love how you refer to CAisDB as "The Tale of the Magician"--it makes me think that the end of the series will have Gary throw sand into the fire as the Midnight Society returns home, only as awesome as that would be, it would be dreadful.

Anyway, thank you for writing this.


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:01 am (UTC)

Heh. Thank you for making that connection. ;)


ReplyThread Parent
saberivojo
saberivojo
saberivojo
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 12:27 am (UTC)

Wheww. This might work. I might be able to sleep easily again. Especially because of what you said. Sam is a Winchester. John's boy. I have always thought that Sam was more like John than he would ever admit. He learned this "sacrifice yourself for your family" at his father's knee. Nothing new there.
Thanks so much for this alternative.


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:02 am (UTC)

I had to come up with something for you g'fren. The idea of you not sleeping because of my previous meta was keeping me from sleeping at night.

*snerk*


ReplyThread Parent
taniapretender
taniapretender
taniapretender
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 12:40 am (UTC)

tee-hee for the end. Loved the meta .
Also, I think that the ending of CAiaDB is a shout-out to Dean too : Do the "right" thing, off your brother if he becomes evil because the Angels told you so, and you'll be miserable and old like me.

Also, I'm wondering what Lilith meant when she said "eradicating the source of Evil". Did she mean that Sam wouldn't just get rid of Lilith, but of EVERYTHING? I don't think that can happen, as ghosts would still get created by un-rested souls, right?

I wonder if Kripke will close the Lilith mytharc at the end of this season, and I think he will, since she's been around for two seasons like YED was (and THANK you for averting the trope of "one villain per season" like in Buffy, Angel, Charmed and many more). I know many fans speculated of Dean being against Sam but that is VERY unlikely to happen, as they would have to SPLIT and I don't see that happening more than one episode at once (yay!). Maybe they'll go to war against Heaven after having defeated Hell? (kinda like in "His Dark Materials"). That'd be cool.

Just sayin'.


ReplyThread
dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:05 am (UTC)

I don't know where he's going or whether or not he's planning to close out Lilith by seasons end, but if I were a betting woman (which I'm not), I'd lay my money on Lilith's demise being both the final seal that must break for Lucifer to rise and the event in the S4 finale that makes Sammy go darkside.

If that comes to pass, I would be very surprised (and very disappointed) to see them reverse Sam's demonic destiny in a single episode rather than making it the them of the final season. But then again, I was surprised to see them pull Dean out of hell the episode after they threw him in, so the choices they make are not always ones I see coming or agree with.


ReplyThread Parent
caarianna
caarianna
caarianna
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 01:15 am (UTC)

I've been thinking about this whole demon blood thing, wherein we tend to assume Sam's skills are evil ... certainly some used them for evil, but not everyone who had them did. If demons are fallen angels, one assumes they have the same basic makeup ie blood and skills, just use them differently. So ... Sam could as easily be said to have angel blood, couldn't he? So long as he uses his skills, as the angels do, to fight evil, then he's doing good and shouldn't be damned for it. In which case, the brothers would remain on the same side (once they figure this out). I also still think there is more to Dean than we know at this stage. I see Ruby as the temptress, trying to get Sam to edge into the darkness, but so far, he hasn't.


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:17 am (UTC)

One of my bigger bitches about the way they are playing Sammy's powers is the idea that the are categorically defined as only having the potential to be evil in the end run. I think their choice there is based on them being demonic in origin, and anything demonic is, by definition, evil.

But the way they've played it almost seems like (to me) a direct conflict for people like Missouri and Pamela. If Sam using his powers to save people from demonic possession makes him worthy of being hunted (as Dean says in one episode,which just about blew the top of my head off with my level of WTF? not happy), then why isn't it huntworthy for Missouri and Pamela to fight evil using their psychic powers? To me, it is the ultimate in thoughtless inconsistency, and it pisses me off all over again every time they touch it, particularly if they touch it in terms of it being something that qualifies Sammy to be hunted rather than something that might turn him darkside in the end.

Because Sam being hunted for being able to do something psychically that isn't all that far off what some of the mystically inclined hunters can accomplish? Is bullshit. Those hunters don't know SAm's power comes from demonic blood, so to them, it should just be a huge power he's using for good, which would be a bit of a "hey, about time we got some help for OUR side in the otherworldly powers division" kind of thing.

Whereas there be an inevitablity of going darkside if he uses those powers rather than turns away from them is less problematic simply because those powers ARE demonic in origin, whereas psychic powers like Pamela and Missouri's done seem to be. And no one needs to know the demonic origin of those powers for those powers to damn Dean in the using. And beyond that, you have both the precedent of Ava and Jake being good people who were corrupted to pure evil by using powers of the same origin AND the idea that absolute power corrupts absolutely to create an "inevitable damnation if he uses the powers" dynamic that is far more sellable than the idea that hunters would be pursuing him simply becaue he can cast out demons with his mind.

For me, the whole complexity of Sam's dellima is that he's using these powers to SAVE people, so I can see why he's having a hard time accepting that he can't use them on nothing other than the word of angels who would have vaporized a whole town full of innocent people to stop a seal from being broken. So it becomes a very reasonable problem to me that Sam might think he can control these powers and use them for good and thus prove himself worthy of salvation despite having demon blood inside him rather than believing that they must damn him, even if he is using them for good.


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clubinthesky
Shuttle Pilot Major C Cockles
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 01:20 am (UTC)

Good observation, you have my vote. Now if you excuse me, i'll go PHONE KRIPKE NOW.


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:18 am (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. While you have him on the horn, tell him we took a vote, and our commissioners who enforce the results of all votes have very sharp pitchforks and know where he lives. Or where he works, at least. ;)


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bloominidiot
bloominidiot
bloominidiot
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 01:34 am (UTC)

Please send this to Kripke.

PLEASE!!

:)


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:19 am (UTC)

I don't think Kripke's taking my calls these days. Maybe it's something I said about S3 ...

*snerk*


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mymuseandi
mymuseandi
Mymuseandi
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 01:37 am (UTC)

Love the meta. Although i kinda wish Sam would not keep his choice decisions from Dean because nothing good can come out from it. And i still think Ruby has her own evil agenda. i trust her as far as i can throw her - and i think she's heavier than me.

I would go for the movie version though. Seeing Jensen and Jared on the big screen is a bonus!


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:23 am (UTC)

I'm of a split mind on Ruby. Because she's on Earth, there is a part of me that thinks she is capable of seeking redemption through genuine good acts the same way Dean is likewise doing, the difference between them being simply that Ruby did finally embrace the demonic self identity whereas Dean was pulled out just a wee bit short of going there.

But on the other hand, there is a part of me that adheres to the idea that, because she DID embrace that demonic identity, everything she does must be, by definition, evil. Which would deny any possiblity that her actions with Sam are anything but evil in design, even if she isn't fully aware of that fact.

I switch back and forth between those two perspectives on Ruby quite often. But the fact that Dean has started actively protecting Ruby rather than trying to kill her every time he sees here tends to make me lean toward the idea that Ruby is genuinely struggling for redemption the same way he is, just from a little bit deeper hole than the one from which he was plucked.


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coltshot_1
coltshot_1
Mel
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 02:36 am (UTC)

Yep, yep, yep. You know, I like Sam more and more. It was never a question of 'if' he would go against Dean's wishes and the angels' admonishments -- it was 'when' would he do it? And really, this seems like a good time.
11 episodes in culminates Dean's story with the admission about hell exactly halfway thru the season -- giving Sam the final impetus - the imperative (as if he needed it) to absolutely prevent Dean from going back to hell. Because as bad and guilt inducing as the endless torment was to imagine - the destruction of the very essence of his big brother is that much worse. He will risk himself to keeep that from happening.
I love all Winchesters.
Great articulation of similar, albeit half baked, stuff I had floating around in my thinky brain.


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:25 am (UTC)

Exactly. Not "if" but "when." And since you are one of the people who most influenced this meta with our conversations, I'm glad it hits were you're thinking, too.


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just_ruth
just_ruth
Ruth
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 02:40 am (UTC)

Works for me - although I failed to mention my one disappointment in "Criss Angel is an Offensive Statement" when they had Dean strung up and Sam strapped down the thought that went through my mind was "Yes! Telekinesis Time!"

Ok, so if might have been an easy way out but you know, he did do it once and it was in a dire situation and oh, wait, that would mean someone followed continuity and . . . oh, forget I said anything. . .


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:28 am (UTC)

I was kinda thinking they might play that card, too; particularly since the magician's powers were coming from tarot cards rather than simply him. So I half expected them to have a "holy SHIT" kind of moment when they experienced Sam doing much stronger things with just his mind and no help from tarot at all. Kind of a "don't fuck with people because you never know who you're fucking with" kind of thing.

But half expecting that didn't interfere with my love of the episode in the way they chose to resolve it either. I love where they went and think it much better serves the story overall than Sammy going all psychic would have, so given the way it played out, I'm glad they made the choice they did.


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azinazelle
azinazelle
Azina Zelle
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 04:24 am (UTC)

I really love the way you've thought this out and analyzed Sam's psyche and decision to using his powers vs. doing the right thing. A lot of posts have been more about Dean and his possibility of having to kill Sam in order to do what was right. I really loved how you broke down the whole destructive Winchester scenario of sacrificing oneself in order to save your family.

I hope (really hope) you're right on this and that Sam's ass will be saved from the pit by Dean (or Castiel) and we won't be faced with the horrible scenario of 1. Dean having to kill Dark Side Sam. 2. Dean being forever separated from Sam while he becomes the ruler of Hell.

I have a nagging suspicion the series will end with the "We have work to do" line and the Impala trunk closing. And if Kripke does kill off the boys you're right there will be blood-thirsty fans storming Vancouver.

Also thanks for explaining what Sam meant he didn't want to be doing this when he was 60 when he went off Ruby. I thought he was giving in to using his powers so they might live a long life (ie the apocalypse would be averted and Dean wouldn't die because of it), but it makes sense the way you put it.

Also here's my two cents if you're interested.


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:30 am (UTC)

I have a nagging suspicion the series will end with the "We have work to do" line and the Impala trunk closing.

I'm right there with you. *nods head*

I'm on a final edit of a story right now, but I look forward to checking out your two cents when I get a second to breathe that I don't spend responding to comments ... or metaing because of something someone else said in comments. :D


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waxbean
waxbean
Waxine
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:28 am (UTC)

i enjoyed reading your thoughts.


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:31 am (UTC)

Thanks. :D


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leelust
leelust
leelust
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 05:57 am (UTC)

I can see your point (esp seeing John in Sam) but i can't say their motivations are the same in sense of what (whom) they choose to trust. John was learning from fellow hunters - people like him with more experience and Sam chose to learn from demon (cos all his sureness about being able to take down Lilith went from Ruby's words - there's no proof if he'll be able to do that or not besides what demon said and i can't see her as reliable source). Also i didn't see that show ever show me that Sam is somwthing more that just ordinary special kid and others learnt how to use their powers w/o help from demons i can't see why Sam wasn't be able to do that on his own.
As to Dean will save Sam (again) scenario i'm ok with it though i can't imagine how he'll do it w/o any help from heavan and i don't see a reason for heaven to return Sam back.
And you can kill me but there's still no spoilers about Sam's destiny *izwhining*

it also leaves open the possibility of a movie at some later date. In 3-D. With a hockey-masked villain. Who carries a pick ax. But succumbs, in the end, to rocksalt peppered into his ass by Jensen Ackles. And Latin laid upon his ears by Jared Padalecki. And just general bad-assery ass kicking as performed by Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Direct by Kim Manners, of course.
Now THAT is brilliant! Where i can sign for it to happen?


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dodger_winslow
dodger_winslow
I'd Sell My Soul for a Blunt Instrument ...
Mon, Jan. 26th, 2009 06:12 am (UTC)

John was learning from fellow hunters - people like him with more experience and Sam chose to learn from demon

John is learning how to hunt from hunters. Sam is learning how to destroy a demon from a demon. Neither of them have the luxury of being able to judge their teachers qualified or not, or judge the information they are getting as accurate or not. Given what the hunters are teaching John about things the rest of the world considers pure crazy, John could be led astray in his information by some nutball calling himself a hunter and simply being crazy just as easily as Sam could be led astray by a demon saying she's trying to help him and simply lying.

It's a very similar dynamic, both in how high the stakes are for trusting the wrong teacher/source of information and in how little either Sam or John have in the terms of outside resources to help them judge whether or not their teachers are, in John's case, sane and knowlegable and, in Sam's case, genuine about helping him or trying to damn him.


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